"The whole UN and UNESCO system is a huge bureaucratic apparatus"
Caliber.Az interview with Vladimir Gai
INTERVIEWS 07 June 2022 - 14:19
Huseyn Safarov Caliber.Az |
Caliber.Az had an interview with MGIMO Professor, Head of UNESCO Communication Development and Free and Independent Media Section (1994-2012), and member of the European project on media education EMEDUS Vladimir Gai. In his interview professor spoke about the rules of applying to UNESCO, equal consideration of any issue there regardless of religious, national, and other factors, as well as Azerbaijan and its political agenda.
- You may know that in Azerbaijan, the attitude to UNESCO is ambiguous. The fact is that for more than a quarter of a century, while the lands of the country were under Armenian occupation, UNESCO stubbornly ignored the catastrophic situation of Azerbaijani cultural and religious heritage in Karabakh. But as soon as Baku managed to regain its territories, the organization at the instigation of the Armenian side immediately remembered the Christian monuments in the liberated lands. Do you know, as a person closely acquainted with UNESCO principles (perhaps unspoken) and its inner mechanism, what is the reason for such a biased attitude towards Azerbaijan? Maybe the religious factor influences?
- I do not think we can speak about "instigation". UNESCO has procedures to submit and consider such issues if you want, complaints. Every member country of any international organization, including Armenia, has the right to apply to the relevant organization concerning the issues that fall within its competence. Preservation of cultural heritage, both tangible and intangible, is the mandate of UNESCO. I am almost sure that there could not be any bias or religious factor.
We can talk about double, triple, or any other standards, not only at UNESCO but in general, in international policy. There are thousands of examples of this.
As to Armenia's appeal to UNESCO, I think it will continue to do so, because all countries do it, especially in case of armed conflicts. UNESCO, for example, for decades has been considering the issues of educational and cultural institutions in the Arab territories occupied by Israel.
But I am not familiar with the appeals of Azerbaijan on these issues, but I exclude by 99% that the approximately equivalent demarches to UNESCO from Armenia and Azerbaijan would be considered somehow differently. If there were complaints, confirmed by photos, and testimonies, UNESCO should have accepted and considered them. In this issue, I am sure, there cannot be any double standards. Another thing is what kind of resolution was adopted afterwards - more stringent, less stringent, more urgent, less urgent, by how many votes, who voted against, who voted for.
I can also say for sure that the religious factor is absent in this case. All kinds of discrimination - nationality, race, gender - are treated with great care in the organization. There can be a lot of punishment for that. This is called political correctness, although it often turns out to be absurd and becomes the exact opposite of political correctness. Nevertheless, I rule out the religious factor.
There is another explanation for the fact that the complaints of Azerbaijan were not considered. It is possible that the application complaint from you was improperly drafted. It is very important to follow the established rules here. Act in accordance with the precedents, and apply to the appropriate body, which should deal with this. The whole UN system, including UNESCO, is a huge bureaucratic machine. And a lot depends on how the appeal is drafted, whether it is made in writing or orally, to what extent it is supported by the relevant delegation, i.e. the permanent representative, etc.
- UNESCO's activities, goals, and objectives, in other words, the image of the organization evokes positive associations in people. This raises the question: does UNESCO have tools of punishment or leverage? That is, what methods of influence does the organization use, if necessary?
- There is nothing in the arsenal of UNESCO, except for political decisions and resolutions, which are not binding, although they have a moral value. There are no other methods of influence. The UN Security Council has levers of pressure and tools of punishment.
- How do you assess Russian journalism? How far does it lag behind Western journalism and what is the fundamental difference between them? Can the Western press boast of freedom of speech and independence?
- Before I talk about Russian journalism, I want to point out that something terrible has been happening in global journalism in recent years. In my opinion, there is practically no media outlet left today that can be fully trusted. Fakes and distorted information are used by almost everyone. Whereas the American The New York Times or the English The Times was once thought to be models of journalism, now there is degradation all over the world. In general, I believe that virtually the entire sphere of media and information is seriously sick today.
Nonetheless, I have to say that the Western press is vastly superior to the Russian press and the post-Soviet press in general in terms of alternative positions, fighting and comparing opinions, in other words, in matters of domestic politics. In the West, they have a huge pluralism of opinion, because almost all the media are strongly associated with one party or another. In this respect, we Russians are considerably inferior. There are certain reasons for this - objective, subjective, volatile, connected with historical moments and possible conflicts, which, of course, impose certain restrictions on the press.
But in Russia, I think that in Azerbaijan too, the media is more interesting, and more reliable in matters of foreign policy. At least on hot international issues from the Russian press one can learn much more about the Western position than in the West about the Russian one. It is no coincidence that the sixth sanctions package includes many Russian media outlets.
- I can't help asking what do you think about the activities of the Russian journalist Vladimir Solovyov? Can he be called a journalist from a professional point of view?
- Solovyov is a high-class professional. He has a good Russian language. Sometimes he gets carried away, but nevertheless, his speech is good. He is a very educated man, he knows the material very well, and he thoroughly prepares for his broadcasts. That is from the professional point of view he is a strong journalist. But I don't like the format of the program that Solovyov hosts. Unfortunately, there are very few programs today, both in Russia and in the West, where people with opposing positions on some issue can hold a constructive, restrained, and polite dialogue. They once tried to arrange something like that on Ekho Moskvy (a 24/7 commercial Russian radio station based in Moscow), but then gave it up, too. People get carried away, and the discussion turns into personal insults. The Solovyov program, which invites "experts" from Poland or Ukraine to create the impression that the program is objective, that not only the Russian point of view can be heard, is, in my view, simply a farce.
- For several months now, almost the entire world has been discussing the situation in Ukraine. How do you see the outcome of this brutal story?
- I believe that had Viktor Yanukovych stayed to the 2014 presidential election, had the opposition not seized power, none of this would have happened. There would have been no Donbas, no Luhansk, no Crimea, let alone this so-called special operation. When Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the SMO on February 24, it came as a surprise to me, to put it mildly. I kept hoping that they would be able to do without it. But then I started asking myself more and more often, "What was there to do?" Ukraine was becoming more and more hostile, did not agree to any agreements, did not fulfil the Minsk agreements, Russia was getting sanctions, Kyiv kept getting full of weapons, and Ukraine was improving its army. What was Russia to do in this situation?
And no one can predict the result. In my opinion, this is Russia's conflict not with Ukraine, but with the West. I don't know how long this will go on. Eventually, Russia will establish control over a number of Ukrainian territories, but military action will not stop there. Ukraine will continue to shell territories under Russian control. In any case, I hope that the West will eventually realize that this is counterproductive and that it is necessary to negotiate with Russia. I do not rule out that this kind of negotiation, but not formal, is already underway. I also want to note that a lot will depend on China's position, especially since this is in its interests. Recently there was information that Putin had approached the head of China with a request for help and received his consent. If, of course, this information is true, it is in China's interests. Otherwise, it will be a war of attrition.
- What can you say about modern Azerbaijan?
- I have a very positive and sincere attitude to Azerbaijan and the leadership of the republic. Ilham Aliyev, like his father at the time, conducts a wise policy in the interests of the Azerbaijani people. I am against the war, but it was the restoration of historical justice.
I once travelled almost all over Azerbaijan. It was beautiful! Wonderful food, fruits, and vegetables, and Baku has beautiful beaches. And most importantly, the people are very friendly.
Of course, I know the history of Karabakh. Moreover, I had to deal with my Armenian friends, who tried to appeal to me about the war in 2020. I had to explain to them, even delicately, that I'm sorry, but in terms of international law this is Azerbaijani territory, and you have nowhere to go, the situation is what it is.
Azerbaijan is a wonderful prosperous country with a wise president. I have been there and I have many friends there. I was very friendly with Tair Salakhov. I think the heads of Azerbaijan, Heydar and Ilham Aliyev, had a wise and cunning policy, in a good sense of the word. In its time, within the USSR, then after gaining its independence, Azerbaijan built good and trusting relations with Russia, and developed wonderful relations with Türkiye and other countries of the region. It seems to me that the only thing Azerbaijan lacks is playing ahead of its critics, and the cunning that some countries, such as China, have. Including the competence of UNESCO: the preservation of the world's cultural and historical heritage, teaching in minority languages, etc.
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