"This is personal fault of Minister Lavrov"
Russian expert Shevchenko on Israel and Nazism

INTERVIEWS  06 May 2022 - 11:26

Caliber.Az presents an interview with a Russian expert, journalist and public figure Maxim Shevchenko.

- Maxim Leonardovich, what do you think about the statements of Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov regarding Jews and Hitler? Is such a comparison acceptable for a diplomat of this rank?

- Let me start by saying that Hitler was a purebred Austrian, he was not a Jew. The surname Hitler has been known since the 16th century, and all talk that he allegedly had the Jewish blood is absolute nonsense. These are fabrications through which they try to change Nazism and National Socialism, which is derived from German political philosophy, not from Hitler's complexes. For your information, Martin Heidegger, the greatest philosopher of the 20th century, was a member of the Nazi party, and he was not Jewish, but his lover and student Hannah Arendt was Jewish, and also a great philosopher. She devoted her whole life to explaining why Martin Heidegger became a member of the Nazi party and never repented of it, judging by the black notebooks published not long ago. This is the first point. Lavrov's mistake on this point discredited the rest of his interview.

The second point is about so-called Nazism or fascism. We play words too often, and they lose their meaning because of this. Nazism is a specific political doctrine of German nationalists of the first half of the 20th century. But at the same time, racial superiority and contempt for other people still exist. This is the policy of the state of Israel (I have always talked about this), and not only I but many Jews also talk about it: Hedy Epstein, Stanley Cohen, Israel Shamir and many other Israelis. Hedy Epstein had parents who died in the Holocaust, and she called Israel a Nazi state. Do you know what I mean? She, as a young girl, worked at the Nuremberg Tribunal, in the commission that investigated the Nazis' use of poisonous substances to exterminate people. So there were a huge number of UN resolutions on the attitude of the state of Israel toward the Palestinians, for example. There was a pretty clear definition there, in my opinion, but it had nothing to do with the Jews. No person or people should be a hostage to the actions of the state.

But, let's look at the political grounds for the state of Israel. Blood is considered a fundamental value there, which means that if your mother does not have Jewish blood, you will never get Israeli citizenship, unless, of course, you buy it through corrupt means. But if your mother or grandmother is Jewish, you automatically get Israeli citizenship for some reason. This seems to me to be completely archaic, having to do with 19th-century practice. But citizenship by blood is one of the hallmarks of what was called Nazism. I don’t describe Israel as a Nazi state, by no means. But the very principle of blood as a determinant of a person's citizenship and political affiliation takes us there, back to Hitler's time. So from this point of view, Sergey Viktorovich is right. The principle of blood in the 20th - 21st century is absurd and idiotic. But he kind of discredits this approach when he starts saying that by blood he is of such-and-such nationality. A person's nationality is not determined by blood. Nationality is in a person's head. A person inherits his appearance by blood from his grandparents, for example, nose, eye colour, hair, and so on.

If we talk about contempt for other people, and the expulsion of people from their homes, Israel should indeed comply with UN resolutions regarding the Palestinians.

Actually, I would think about the fact that this is Russia's official position, and it coincides in many ways with the position of Iran, which is, by the way, also a huge state. You have to understand that the world has changed fundamentally. The principles of Zionism used at the end of the 20th century, I mean the recognition of people anywhere in the world as Jews and Israelis by the principle of blood, will disappear in the 21st century. The blood principle will not dominate anyone - not for Armenians, not for Russians, not for Jews - because it is an archaic thing that must leave the human perception of the world. Ukrainians write to me and ask me if I am Ukrainian by blood. I consider this to be Nazism. And I will never agree with it. I am what I consider myself to be.

- Who do you think you are?

- I am a Muscovite [born in Moscow], and my nationality is my own business. Although my surname is Shevchenko, I am a Russian person who grew up in Russian culture. And if my surname was John Reed, would I be an American? My father was born in Moscow, and I was born in Moscow. I didn't know any other language except Russian. I mentally feel like a Russian person. But since my last name is Shevchenko, I have to consider myself Ukrainian. This is fascism. I am against it. I defended the Azerbaijanis, because Azerbaijan's position was anti-fascist. Azerbaijanis through President Ilham Aliyev postulated the principles of civil society - the equality of all. It was Ilham Heydarovich who said that Armenians can also be citizens of Azerbaijan. So, I was on the side of Azerbaijan, not on the side of those who postulated the principle of blood. Don't make that mistake now. Think about who and how you should support. Read Hannah Arendt, what she wrote about Martin Heidegger. In fact, she wrote about a lot of things. Hannah Arendt is a great philosopher, she was Jewish, she considered herself to be Jewish, she wrote book about Eichmann trial, she was present at it as a journalist. I suggest to my Azerbaijani friends, whom I love very much, to keep a cool head in this matter. This is my request. It is better to restrain your desire to speak out on this subject. Believe me.

- So, you confirm that Lavrov's statement reflected Russia's position?

- Yes. This is the position of the Russian Federation. The Russian Foreign Minister, a man who has been engaged in diplomacy all his life, is not just a random person. The position of the Russian Federation in many respects (if you take away the inaccuracies that were said by ignorance) coincides with UN resolutions, with the position of Iran, Syria, Lebanon, a huge number of Islamic countries, with the position of the Jewish Communists of the US whom I know among others, with the position of the Communist Party of Israel, which also rejects the blood principle and is an anti-fascist political organization. By the way, it is led by Jews, not Arabs. I know these decent people who are not afraid to speak out against the principle of blood in Israel. So, if I were you, I would listen to what Sergey Viktorovich says and try to find a rational position there, that is, what Russia's position is, what Lavrov is misguided about, how his statements coincide with UN resolutions, and so on. Israel has an ambiguous position in this situation.

- Justify your words, please.

- Speaking of Israel's ambiguous position, I am referring to the unpunished shelling of Syria, the Gaza Strip. Look, every day there are reports of the deaths of Palestinian children, every day bombs and shells explode in Gaza and on Palestinian land. No one sees that. Pay attention to this. I advocate peace without violence and Nazism. I am sure the President of Azerbaijan spoke about this very approach when Azerbaijan liberated its homeland from occupation in 2020. So don't make a mistake, don't get into the trap they are trying to pull you into.

- And how would you explain the Russian diplomat's statement that the most ardent anti-Semites are usually Jews?

- This is a mistake.

- Lavrov's personal fault?

- Yes, his personal fault. Hannah Arendt wrote very well on this topic.

- Let me touch upon one more important issue. The Russian media write about allegedly rising fascism in Ukraine. How does Israel view this?

- You see, Jewish relations with Ukraine are not romantic at all. Ukrainians were a people in the past who surely left the most gruesome examples of the Holocaust and genocide. Jews were murdered by Ukrainians in a most cruel way. We can start with Bogdan Khmelnitsky, under whom roughly two-thirds of Ukraine's Jewish population was murdered. By the way, Bogdan Khmelnitsky, is in second place for Jews after Hitler. He was cursed because his Cossacks brutally murdered Jews - women, old people, children, everyone. Zelenskyy awards Ukrainians the Order of Bogdan Khmelnitsky, even though Judaism has a religious curse on Bogdan Khmelnitsky.

There were also the Petlyura violent outbreaks. There are bones of murdered Jews lying all over Ukraine. So, believe me, maybe the Germans only supervised this case, but all these atrocities were committed by those who called themselves Ukrainians. Do you know who was the only politician in Ukrainian history shooting for anti-Semitism and pogroms?

- No. Enlighten me, please.

- It was Nestor Ivanovich Makhno who broke off relations with Petlyura. Makhno was in favour of the Soviet regime, but was an opponent of the Bolsheviks. It was the free Soviets. He even had Jewish rebel brigades. So, he declared war on Petlyura because of pogroms and anti-Semitism. So, when Ukrainians tell us tales, let them not lie. When a Jew accepts the order of Bogdan Khmelnitsky, I have a question for him: would he accept Hitler's order? For Jews, Bogdan Khmelnitsky is the same character as Hitler. Maybe even worse.

- As a final word, how will relations between Russia and Israel develop amid the high-profile diplomatic scandal?

- I think Russia and Israel will figure this out without me. What relationship does Israel expect having such a position? Let Israel comply with UN resolutions, then perhaps the attitude toward it will approve.

Caliber.Az