“Let Armenian friends not be offended, but I always stand for Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity” Nino Burjanadze’s interview for Caliber.Az

Caliber.Az had an interview with ex-Speaker of the Georgian Parliament, leader of the Democratic Movement-United Georgia party Nino Burjanadze.

- Mrs. Burjanadze, we express our gratitude for the interview. How do you assess the current level of the Georgia-Azerbaijan relations?

- First of all, thank you for the opportunity to communicate with your readers. I would like to stress that the Georgia-Azerbaijan relations are very important to me, and I think that the closer these relations are, the more favorable it will be for Georgia.

Indeed, we have the strategic partnership. I think that Georgia has not fully used the positive opportunities for cooperation with Azerbaijan.

I am sure that this relationship can intensify. Any Georgian government that will think about the interests of its country must further build up and intensify the strategic relationship that we have established with Baku.

- The Georgia-Ukraine relations cooled quite unexpectedly as a result of the Russian-Ukrainian war. What is the reason? What way out of this situation would you suggest?

- First of all, I would like to express the hope that this horror, namely war, will end soon, that people will not be killed any more, guns will not be used and the sides will sit down at the negotiating table.

As for the Georgia-Ukraine relations, I would like to stress that the Georgian people unequivocally supported the Ukrainian people. However, on the other hand, our government is now trying to show that it wants peace, while the opposition wants war.

This caused great disappointment both within Georgia and in Ukraine. Each government must think first of all about its own country, however, it could express its attitude towards sanctions in a completely different way. It was necessary to unambiguously support Ukraine and do this in such a way for everybody to understand that we worry about our state interests regarding sanctions rather than we are afraid of offending Russia.

On the one hand, our government voted against Russia both in the UN and in the UN Human Rights Council, on the other hand, the statement of the prime minister and other officials caused bewilderment both in Tbilisi and in Kyiv.

As for the question raised by some Ukrainian politicians regarding the opening of the second front, I think that these statements were made emotionally, because it is not expedient for them to call on Georgia or any other country to open the second front.

It is unacceptable to involve a friendly country in the war just to divert Russian troops’ attention from Ukraine. It is necessary to think not only about your own country, but also about others. Therefore, I fully support our government that the second front will not be opened in Georgia. Our country must not open any second front as it concerns Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

There were tragic moments in our history that resulted in a military confrontation between fraternal peoples. It would be not only a bigger mistake, but also a crime against our own people to repeat this mistake.

Abkhazians and Ossetians must be sure that there will be no military attack against them. There will be no military solution to the situation related to Abkhazia and South Ossetia regardless whether Russian troops are stationed there or not. Our country must do everything at the diplomatic level to help end the war in Ukraine as soon as possible.

Despite there is a certain basis for the dissatisfaction of Ukrainian friends, and this basis was created by the inadequate statements and actions of the Georgian government, such a deterioration in relations between Kyiv and Tbilisi, even at the governmental level, does not benefit us. I hope that this is still a temporary phenomenon, and after a while everything will improve.

If history could be reversed for 19 years back, would you take part in the Rose Revolution again with Zurab Zhvania and Mikheil Saakashvili?

- Of course I would take part in the revolution because it was an absolute necessity for the country. The revolution was not the desire of one person or one leader, it was a response to the challenges that existed in the country. Georgia was in absolute stagnation, corruption was at such a level that it posed a danger to normal development. Shortly, Georgia was on the edge of abyss.

I have never supported the revolution. When I was running an election campaign in 2003, during my speeches I said that the country needed revolutionary reforms, but not a revolution. We needed evolution. It would have been so if Eduard Shevardnadze’s government had not turned a blind eye to the realities that existed in the country.

People really wanted and expected big changes. The Georgians expected the elections to bring these changes. However, unfortunately, the elections were rigged. This caused a severe reaction both among the political elite and people.

It was noteworthy that even when the revolutionary processes began, when tens of thousands of people were standing on the street, Saakashvili, Zhvania and me met with Shevardnadze. We urged him to review the election results or to hold repeated elections rather than to resign.

I am absolutely sure that if Shevardnadze's entourage had not isolated him from the real situation in the country, if he had adequately assessed the situation and held new elections, then no revolution would have occurred.

If new elections were held, three revolutionary leaders, as well as the political forces that we led, would enter parliament with a majority, this would give us the opportunity to move smoothly to a completely different stage of development. Unfortunately, this did not occur.

A revolution is a combination of two components. People do not want to live as before, and the authorities simply do not want to hear their fellow citizens. The fact that the authorities did not hear us resulted in a revolution that opened up huge opportunities for the development of our country. These opportunities were initially used.

There was no gas and electricity in the country, people did not receive salaries and pensions for several months, the situation was catastrophic. After the revolution, our government represented by young MPs was able to solve these problems within a few months.

People began to use gas and electricity. Construction of infrastructure was launched. We began to carry out reforms in the public sector. We began to give people pensions and salaries. During the first years of the revolution, we took the right steps, but they turned out to be very fast.

 Of course, there were mistakes from the very beginning, when representatives of Shevardnadze’s government were arrested. It is necessary to arrest people if they are guilty by observing all procedural norms and laws rather than using this as a PR campaign. The requirements of the laws were ignored as a result of such hasty steps.

From the very beginning, I was against the violation of any law, and I always said that it is necessary to observe elementary legal norms, the presumption of innocence.

A few years ago, Saakashvili paid a compliment to me saying that Burjanadze wanted to be distinguished and tried to slow down something after the revolution.

I was really distinguished among others in this team and really tried to slow down all too fast steps that were carried out in violation of the law, and said that if you break the law even once, even if there are humane goals, if you do something on your own, then it will definitely lead to arbitrariness.

When the government begins to think that it knows what people need best of all and ignores people, it is on the edge of the abyss. Unfortunately, this occurred. Nevertheless, despite this, I believe that very important steps were taken after the revolution, there were breakthroughs both in domestic and foreign policy.

That’s why, people stood against the United National Movement in 2012 following the mistakes made by the authorities.

I think that the fact that we, the leaders of this revolution, could not fully meet the aspirations of our people, could not use the absolutely unique chance that we had was the mistake rather than the Rose Revolution.

People inside the country and abroad fully supported. This does not mean that we must denigrate the Rose Revolution.

- Is the Georgian current government the logical result of Saakashvili's defeat?

- Of course, although I left power earlier, in 2008, because I saw that everything was going in the wrong direction and instead of creating a legal and democratic country, we are violating human rights, ignoring the aspirations of our population, however, nevertheless, I take some responsibility for both positive steps and mistakes that were made despite my fault was minimal. I blame myself for not being tougher, not doing more to eliminate the then arbitrariness.

If not for these mistakes, such a situation in Georgia when one rich man took power into his own hands and practically turned our country into his own garden would not have happened.

 - Could the Russian-Georgian war of 2008 have been avoided?

- A few thousand years ago, a Chinese philosopher said that the greatest victory in war is to avoid it. Of course, the government of each country must do everything possible to avoid war. The fact that this war brought absolutely tragic consequences to Georgia is clear to me.

Unfortunately, the recognition of Abkhazia and Ossetia by Russia was absolutely unacceptable for me both then and now. This has driven relations between our countries to a standstill, and I have repeatedly stated this on Russian TV channels. Russia knows very well that Abkhazia and Ossetia have always been an integral part of Georgia, and I hope that this will continue.

- Your ways with Saakashvili diverged long ago. Is reconciliation and cooperation possible between you and your parties in the next parliamentary elections?

- Our paths diverged, I saw many things in a completely different way and I think that if he had listened to me, Saakashvili would not be in prison today. But all this is in the past. I have a lot of complaints about Saakashvili and his team, not only before my leaving the power, but also after it. Now I do not want to talk about this because Saakashvili is in prison and he is treated inhumanely.

Representatives of the Georgian Dream party began to criticize me, saying that, I forgot what Saakashvili did for me, they called me a traitor and so on. All these are unworthy statements. I didn’t forget anything. I remember this resentment and this does not mean that I will turn a blind eye to the fact that the former president of the country, even the one whom I criticized and fought against, will be dragged for hair in prison and will remain without proper medical treatment.

I am a really fair person, for whom democratic values and respect for human rights are not words that are needed for PR, these words are very important to me, and it does not matter who will be tortured in prison - my like-minded person or the person with whom I was at enmity. The rights of all people must be respected, and if we want to have a legal and democratic country, everyone must be equal before the law.

What did Bidzina Ivanishvili do? He is doing everything for those in Georgia, who do not want to see Saakashvili, to face a choice -either to vote for Ivanishvili and extend his rule, or Saakashvili will return and imprison you all. The dishonest game played by the current Georgian authorities is absolutely unacceptable for me. That is why I took this position not because I forgot anything.

As for cooperation, unfortunately, the United National Movement is greatly supported by the opposition parties in Georgia. I openly told the representatives of the United National Movement that I would never agree to their returning to power. This does not depend on me, but on people, to whom they will give more votes.

Unfortunately, it is clear that without the United National Movement and without the electorate, the opposition will be unable to defeat the Georgian Dream. Therefore, I advocated and continue to advocate for snap elections, as well as for all opposition political parties to unite against Mr. Ivanishvili, and then each of us will create the coalition that will be close to us in terms of principles, values and ideas.

 - Do you think Georgia must move towards the West or Russia?

- Now the situation is so difficult that it is not necessary to talk about friendship with Russia. I have always said that it is impossible to oppose one direction to another. To go in the direction of the West and to intend to join the EU does not mean being at enmity with Russia. We need to talk to everyone, no matter how difficult it is, because Russia is a neighbor, whether we like it or not. I was often criticized in Georgia and was called an enemy when I said that we need to talk to Russia. It is necessary to talk always especially when the forces are unequal.

However, I never advocated unequal conversation. The conversation must be equal, based on the interests of your own country, and whether you, as a representative of your country, will be able to realize your interests depends on the politician. I was often told that we can't talk to Russia because we can't defend our interests. Then the problem is that we can't hold normal negotiations.

Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev’s actions show that even such a small country in terms of territory and population as Azerbaijan can conduct worthy and mutually beneficial negotiations, even in the most difficult situation. Therefore, here Mr. Aliyev is really an example for me to follow. I would like Georgia to be able to have a conversation with everyone, including Russia, for the benefit of its interests, as the Azerbaijani president did.

- Azerbaijan has restored its territorial integrity. How can Georgia’s territorial integrity be restored?

- Let our Armenian friends not be offended but I have always advocated the principle of the country’s territorial integrity, I mean Azerbaijan. I have never hidden this, and I told this my Azerbaijani friends and during my visit to Armenia.

Despite the difficult relations between Baku and Yerevan, it is very important that the leaders of both countries find the opportunity and strength to negotiate and find certain ways out of a very difficult situation.

Mr. Aliyev has recently spoken about a new mechanism for cooperation among three South Caucasian republics, namely, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia, including that in the transport sector. This is a very important initiative and I think that the sooner it is implemented, the better for all three countries. If peace and mutual understanding reign in the South Caucasus, it will be very beneficial for all of us.

Of course, I am interested in normal relations between Armenia and Azerbaijan, no matter how difficult it is, and I see that you are taking steps in this sphere. The Armenian side also intends to establish at least some kind of dialogue, which gives hope that the situation will gradually improve.

As for the conflict in Georgia, I would like to emphasize once again that the only right way I see is to establish a direct dialogue with our Ossetian and Abkhazian compatriots, to conduct intensive negotiations. However, I can say that I negatively assess the activity of our leadership, which does nothing to restore the destroyed relations between our peoples, and the solution of these issues is postponed for an indefinite period of time.

Nevertheless, I hope that the situation will change, we will be able to gradually establish normal relations, create conditions for the restoration of our territorial integrity, return refugees to their places of residence, and ensure such conditions when Abkhazians, Georgians and Ossetians will feel like equal citizens our normal country.

Caliber.Az